Their Take: Echelon Snowboards
New brands pop up on the radar all the time if you pay attention to that sort of thing. When Echelon popped on my radar it was intriguing to say the least due to the abundance of technology and thought going into the products. Hype was building amongst the masses of readers that follow this and I knew it was time to dive into the interview world and see what they were all about. Don Engel one of the founders and owners was awesome enough to spend the better part of this fall answering emails with me to make this interview happen. Here’s what he had to say on what possibly could be the longest interview I’ve ever done.
AS: How and where did the idea come from to start a snowboard company in this economy in a market that already has an abundance of brands?
Don Engel: The idea to start Echelon came a few years ago, really, but like anything worthwhile it takes time to do things right. My partner and I own a defense contracting firm. As you might imagine, that line of work gets pretty intense, and we were looking to apply our engineering, integration, and technical know-how to a non-military industry. I showed some sketches of products and plans to him that I had done over the past couple years and he was all-in. Since we both really enjoy riding, it just turns out that it’s fun for us too! I’ve been trying to get to the point where I could start my own action-sports company for over two decades. Echelon is an attempt to put those two decades of thinking into tangible products.
As for the economy, there’s different ways to approach the “gloom and doom”. In any economy – even a challenging one – there’s both adversity and opportunity. On the adversity side, you need to really watch your costs (while spending enough to be relevant). Arranging credit is tougher, and buyers have a lower pain-point at the register, etc. However, on the opportunity side, it is far easier to negotiate partnerships, pricing, and more in favor of the consumer in tough times, than when everyone is driving a red Ferrari just for getting hit in the nuts on TV. The economy has really helped us to make great strides, technically and organizationally, in a short time. Basically, people will call you back on the phone these days, because if it’s tough for us it’s probably tough for them too, and no one in the industry wants to be idle. The best way to deal with recessionary cycles might be “refuse to participate”. That way, when the economy recovers, and it always does, you’re in a good place. The alternative is to wait around on one’s ass, which is something I don’t do well.
Regarding the abundance of brands, what I really see is an abundance of colorways. No names will be named, but many companies are copies of each other with different paint-jobs. I mean, to some extent everyone is guilty of this (we share some tech with Omatic, for instance, although with some modifications) but there really are companies whose contribution to the industry are things like “look, misogyny!” or “every product is made while we are high” or whatever. That’s cool, but to me if we can’t add something new to the mix then I don’t want to do it. Style is important, but our goal is to have a cool style that also functions well in innovative ways. We chose a military theme because we’re familiar with it and because the military makes really cool and useful stuff. Lots of companies try emulating the military, with mixed results – we just happen to go past emulation and into integration.
What we want to offer is some of the technology we use in the defense industry, and to inject it into the seemingly disconnected snow sports industry. While war and riding are dissimilar pursuits (unless you’re riding in a really rough neighborhood) in some small ways they are alike. Both tend to be done in extreme conditions, by people requiring varying types and arrays of equipment, and whose needs change constantly based on where they’re operating and what sort of support structure they have at the time. Also, making a big mistake in either pursuit can kill you, so there’s that. Resort riding has different needs than backcountry riding, park and freeriding are different, newbies have different needs from advanced riders, etc. To that end you either need to make tons of different versions of your products, or you have to lie and say that your product can do everything at once equally well, or you need to make your stuff customizable and extend-able when possible. We chose the latter route, and I think that for people that want something that works, and that don’t mind looking awesome, our products will hit home for them.
AS: What can snowboarders looking at your product expect in terms of integration from your military theme and background?
DE: One of the most important things isn’t a “thing”, so much as it is a process and a way of solving problems. Military products are, first and foremost, there to solve a need. When we are thinking of products, we start by asking “what problem needs solving”? Secondly is the design approach that is used to make military products is a bit different from snowboarding. Most snowsports companies are looking to follow this year’s trends.
That isn’t an indictment; the entire industry thrives on constant change. But on the military side, that’s not the case. Every attempt to solve a problem is an attempt to solve it ‘forever’. Because of the consequences of failure, you get used to thinking of things in terms of life and death based on how well you design something, so our mindset is quite different from that of a company chasing a trend.
The way in which we manifest that in our design is that we try to not make singular products, but instead work in the concept of systems. As an example, most might say that Raytheon ( a big defense contractor), makes the AIM-120 AMRAAM ‘missile’. But the part that goes boom is a single piece of a larger whole. Without the other systems designed in conjunction with the explode-y bit, the effectiveness of the missile is greatly reduced or eliminated. So, what they really make is a ‘missile system’.
For us, translating that to the snow means taking a problem, and developing a comprehensive systems-based approach to solve it as completely as possible, and to build in versatility and expandability in every design. Our new binding makes use of this design philosophy, as does our upcoming (and unannounced until now) C-WCS outerwear platform. Because we are so new, we can’t talk too much about the details for a couple more months, as we get closer to SIA and we get things into patent-pending status.
Of course we also have access to some people with… interesting skill sets, let’s say, which means that from a materials science, physics, and general technology standpoint we have access to some unique information that the general public won’t or can’t know about yet. Our binding is being designed in part by a former Forum binding designer and a Boeing engineer that designs, and conducts stress analysis on, aircraft parts for a major aerospace firm. I’d bet decent money that we’re also the only Snowboard manufacturer with members who have active SECRET level clearance.
I don’t wish to imply that we use classified technology in the construction of our stuff, because we can’t, and don’t. But by being
on the cutting edge of technology in our other work, it makes out-of-box thinking and top-notch engineering just sort of what comes naturally.
Thematically, we’re the real deal. We aren’t sticking a patch on our jacket and calling it mil-spec. I suspect that our C-WCS platform will be the biggest initial embodiment of that when it arrives; I mean I had to throw an IR visibility warning and export restrictions on the thing. The complexity of the concept required a tech-pack (what designers give to factories for them to work from) that is 32 pages long (most outerwear might take 4-5 pages). But we’re also not slavish with the theme either. Looking at the boards, you can see that we do a lot of color, which probably isn’t expected given the subject matter. So while everything we do is military influenced, that influence runs a wide range from “built to look and work like a tank” to “built with the integrity you’d expect of a soldier and the look of hello kitty”.
We’ve also started an initiative to bring local Echelon riders together into a larger national and international organization. Sort of like COBRA, with less grave-robbing and super villain cloning. That’s an end-of-2012 program, so it’s going to take a while due to its technical and organizational complexity.
For soldiers, we will sell them any of our boards for $150 shipped. They can get in touch with us directly to set that up. As pricing on other products becomes available, we’ll have special pricing for that too.
As we grow, we intend on an ever-increasing ramp-up of bringing military-bred technology into our designs. Some of that will take big volumes of sales to justify, so if you ever want to see hoverboards, start by asking your local shop to carry us!
AS: How did the idea to license Omatics B.S. Technology come about?
DE: I come from a skate background originally, and I still skate today. I always wondered why bases on boards were flat, instead of shaped in the way skateboards are. It seemed like a shaped surface could help in many situations on-hill, but not having the resources to change that back then I had to essentially wait for the concave concept to catch on with someone that did. When Bataleon came out with TBT years back, I immediately bought one. In general, I liked it, but there were a few things about it that I didn’t like too. Later, Burton started in with its EasyRider tech, which was like a mild TBT. One thing I really didn’t like in these approaches was the seemingly unnecessary stress put on the cores to make the curvatures; also it makes the top-sheet look odd and holds snow on the nose like an 80′s stockbroker.
I heard about BS in the trades and what not, and it sounded interesting. Fast forward a bit and I am at Bear with my little girl one day, soon after arranging the details to get Echelon moving. Luckily, it was a demo for shop owners that day, and I took a walk through tent city. I was riding a Gnu Pickle that day, testing Magnetraction. I stopped by the Omatic booth, and saw BS for the first time. The booth guy (Mike?) offered, unlike the other manufacturers there, to let me try a board- an Extr-Eco. I took two runs, and asked him if he’d trade the pickle for it 
. It was just what I had been looking for- a simple, non-press formed 3D base bevel that still looked like a normal board up top. In the defense world, we call this a COTS purchase (commercial off-the-shelf). It’s what you do when you realize the problem you’re looking to solve was already solved by someone else, and it’s likely a better solution than the one you had in mind at the time. I met with Jason from Omatic to discuss things. He was super stoked to see 3rd party pickup of the tech, and through his involvement, the quality of our initial prototypes was about 90% on point.
We call BS “True3D”, simply because Todd R can get away with the BS joke whereas I don’t have that clout. We tuned it slightly for us, and we are also putting it on more boards than Omatic at the moment. We are doing it on a cambered model, as well as making a “Lite3D” variant on our V-Reverse models, where we found the True3D to be too much bevel in testing.
AS: Isn’t it a bit of a big undertaking to enter the market with boards, bindings, and outerwear as a new brand? Wouldn’t it have been a bit easier to just enter with boards and then slowly expand your lines and grow?
DE: Easier perhaps, but we don’t mind working. We have the resources and know-how, so waiting around wasn’t a priority for us. In combat, a key to success is continuous forward movement. If you want to succeed, hit hard, fast, and non-stop until you’ve advanced to the objective- then you can rest a bit. This is just snowboarding, but the base strategy is valid anyway. I’ve been working on some of these concepts a long time, and life is short. Boards are great- and they’re an ‘easy’ way to get in there, but then you’re a one -trick pony. Retailers want to know you have plans for the future, and so do customers. They don’t need another company that’s just a marketing device; there are tons of those.
On a more personal level, the products I’m making are things I personally can’t wait to ride. When you’re making cool ideas reality, you want ‘cool’ to happen as quickly as possible!
AS:One of the hot topics in the snowboarding world is the local retail market. Shops are struggling and everyone has a different theory on what they can do to help them. You have the Allies program care to shed any more light on what that is all about? Also beyond that will you be doing more to help foster the local scene in various regions?
DE: The Allies program, as described on our site, is a program to award early adopters. Taking a chance on a new company can be scary for a retailer. They put money, employee time, floor space, and more, only for the company to maybe under deliver, etc.
Allies get (based on participation levels) a 3 or 4 percent discount on purchases for 3 or 4 seasons, regardless of future purchasing levels. Compare that with other companies, where every year retailers are required to buy-in thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of inventory to get discounts just for that year. First year commitment gets retailers long-term discounts for relatively little risk. Additionally, it can assist in a bad year. In Bear this past year, we had a major road closure that impacted business on the west end of town severely, leaving a lot of unsold inventory. How likely is it that this season they can buy in volume to get their regular discounts? Not very. With us, that discount is in effect for years to come, as part of our commitment to those that stand with us in year one.
At seasons end, that discount can be the difference between profit or loss, and so we’re hoping that it helps, without shutting us down in the process.
As for local scenes, we have a fairly intensive community outreach going on. This summer, we attended 13 skatepark events all over SoCal. While many don’t see a direct connection, for us it’s a no-brainer. You have to promote before events, not during or after. In snowboarding, the ‘event’ is the season. If your company shuts down off-season(especially if you’re new) then come fall, people will gravitate in the vacuum to the same old thing. You need to be pressing the fight year round, or you’ll lose ground every year that must be regained in winter. Is it any wonder that many companies products sit on the shelf till mid-winter? Hell, people don’t know they exist until mid season, due to lack of promotion in the off season. As we grow, we’ll expand these kinds of events.
We have an interesting social media program we are working on to tie together riders, mountains and more. This will also be tied into our product line, in details specific to certain areas, resorts, and the like. Sorry I can’t be more specific yet on a bunch of stuff; OPSEC is pretty important at this stage of the game.
AS: Tying into with what you just said about the Allies program where do you see the biggest growth areas for retail and your brand?
DE: Retail-wise, I think that growth is best developed by offering something different, and supplying a one-stop lifestyle nexus. If your big thing is to carry ‘popular brand x’, that’s fine but then what do you offer beyond an online retailer? You certainly can’t price compete, and increasingly it is hard to even compete on service. The large online retailers do a great job in remote-service. But there is one thing that is hard for online to do, and that is in developing a local-tailored lifestyle environment. Shops that treat their local scene holistically, where riders can express their lifestyle with a mix of fashion, hardgoods, music, and even refreshments can get repeat business year-round, and get tons of chances to educate their customers.
The next big thing in retail now seems to be brand- specific retail locations, but I don’t think we’ll be there until 5-8 years down the road. That’s fine with me for now anyway- I’ll do what I do best, and let retailers do what they do best.
As for brand growth, Echelon has a simple philosophy- if someone else already does it, and we can’t make it better, we don’t do it until we can. This keeps us from developing me-too products. I’m not going to throw out some bullshit copycat stuff that I’ve encrusted with a bedazzler in the basement. And that means that if i make something (other than something like a t-shirt), then there’s a reason- and people that appreciate good and useful stuff will want to at least check it out, and hopefully buy it if it helps their riding. This keeps our growth to a manageable level, since I don’t worry about me-toos it means all development effort is useful. The general public would be shocked at how many products out there are completely cosmetic variations of a standard generic product- the snowsport equivalent of a $60 Armani plain white t-shirt.
As an example, this is a big reason that, for now, I am not pursuing boots. Salomon, 32, DC, etc have been making boots for decades. Making a good boot is tough, and so far I haven’t identified a way to do it better than these guys. When I do, I might make a boot. Until then, the closest I’ll get is likely a collaboration colorway or something like that. By the way- any great companies interested in a boot collab, hit me up!
AS: A lot of companies are based in Southern California but not many can claim they’re located right next to a resort. What was your reasoning for choosing to live up in Big Bear and have one of the most progressive terrain parks in your back yard?
DE: Well, I personally didn’t see the reason to open anywhere else. Like basically every other company out there, I have to work at least in part with overseas manufacturing, so it was an ideal choice in that regard. Trips to/from China, Japan, and Korea are easier from this coast. Also, with so many other major players operating from SoCal, it is easier to make partnerships and contacts. However, it also made sense to remove myself from the SoCal scene a bit, and understand better what the end customer wants by living in Bear. If you aren’t in close proximity to your target audience, it is really easy to miss small details.
Bear’s park is rad, regardless of being left off this year’s TWS 10-best list. Bear attracts a wide range of riders, from local semi-pros to LA hipsters and never-evers and for more of the season than Xmas and spring break. It’s a great laboratory for watching riders interact with the sport.
With my house .25 klicks from the mountain base, and .10 from the office, my team and I are constantly reminded of riding. In the off-season, when others move on to thoughts of the beach, or whatever, we’re still gazing at lifts. It helps us stay focused on the objective- make cool stuff so the coming season is maximally awesome.
Lastly, it has helped me scope out some great talent for our team, and to work with them directly through the on and off season. Donk Antrobus, Evan Heckman, Melissa Spillman, Erika Vikander, and several more are great people and great riders. I’d likely never have met them had I been downhill sipping margaritas on the oceanfront.
The one negative of operating from Bear is that no one else does. The downhill meetings with partners, etc. are getting frequent enough to warrant a satellite base in SoCal proper that I can work from part-time, because driving 12-14 hours a week is not an efficient use of my time.
AS: How has the team development been going thus far? You’re starting to stack a solid team of up and comers that have some pretty solid skills and big ambitions.
DE: Team development has been moving along at a rapid pace; we are fortunate in that Bear (and SoCal in general) has a ton of great talent out there, both on board and off. I’m a “full package” type of guy. If a rider is difficult to work with, or an asshat, or as the military says “that guy”, they are removed from service quickly. Luckily, I am happy to say that all my riders are good at riding and good people. I’m a professional, and I want my people to be professional, and so by definition I try not to get people involved that can’t operate at that level. I think that by demanding that attitude, we attract more of it to us, and so eventually we will stack the team with quality people, who will do good things.
Team rider Erika “The Viking” Vikander P: Brent LaFleur
Erika Vikander, Donk Antrobus, The Heckman twins, Bob Webb, Zach Soderholm and Tylor Bereth, Molly Aguirre – really all of our riders – are chosen on attitude first. Their amazing riding is merely an external reflection of that inner attitude. We also haven’t slacked on support roles. Etta Riles kills it as an all around “make things happen” person, and I can’t thank her enough. Kyle Ryerson, Jared Hatch, Chad Schmidt – these team filmers are great riders in their own right, but are driven by other internal mechanisms that put them in different roles. Often a filmer has to be nearly as good as the guy he’s filming, so I’m pretty stoked on them. Our grom team is an incubator program that aims to teach them early what it takes to get to the next level, and Joey Venner, Justin Hill, and Christian Collins are working on doing that.
My shadowy partner that assists us to “go big” when we need to is an invaluable team member – but will rarely, if ever, be seen. Just imagine the partner is an alien, or doesn’t exist – it will make things easier for everyone.
As an aside, I have to say that I couldn’t do anything I do without the love and support of my most important team member, my wife Summer. She’s an amazing person, and I’m pretty lucky to have her on my side.
AS: From the start of the inception of the idea to start a company to now what have been the biggest lessons learned and how has that helped you going forward with SIA and 2013 season?
DE: The biggest lesson of all is the lead times required to make even the simplest of things happen. In some cases, it is because something is hard – Outerwear development, for example, is pretty complicated, especially if you are trying to do something truly new (which we are). In other cases, the times get long because of what might just be an industry attitude, where it seems some people believe there is all the time in the world to accomplish an important, time-sensitive task. I’m used to making things happen, and doing them VERY fast, so I have had to recalibrate my turn-around expectations a bit to coincide with industry norms. They are a lot slower paced than I am used to.
The other is that the worst decision in life is to not make one. Assess, decide, act – but always get to that third stage, or nothing will happen, it’s a trite-sounding maxim, but failure is useful in that it teaches you what not to do. Inaction just makes you wonder what might have happened.
AS: To round out this interview what would you tell to the average snowboard consumer that’s looking to potentially buy some of your products.
DE: I would tell them “thank you”.
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Don is the man and the boards are awsome
Me thinks that they are really just Omatic, all their technology has the same name…
We definitely licensed BS from Jason, and he and the Omatic team helped a ton on getting things dialed on the board side. OTOH, we also offer more cambers, our own molds, and of course are doing bindings and outerwear too so we definitely aren’t a front for Omatic – everything is from our own funding, etc. But yeah, we talk often, which isn’t a bad thing.
In year two (13-14) we have some newness that I think will work well. It’s all proto now though.
could never support a brand owned by corporate war pigs
this bullshit has no place on the mountain
Hey Jay, as someone who has served this great country we live in. Go fuck yourself.
2013 late release The Corporate War Pig model.
I think all the graphics and military insignia surrounding the brand and are kind of a bold decision. You’l definitely appeal to a lot of people going down this surrounding your brand with a military feel thing, but i feel you’re going to turn just as many people off. War and the military are such evocative things, as shown by the two comments above, that for every person who goes fuck yeah guns bombs, military, i’m getting involved there will be at least one more who thinks they want nothing to do with brand who sels themselves so heavily on such things. Time will tell if it works but personally i’d never want to be associated with a such a brand, but then i am a British lefty liberal so probably not your target market
)
“but i feel you’re going to turn just as many people off. ”
That is probably true. I’m okay with that; it’s the old adage: “all of the people all of the time” and all that. While I don’t go into politics, I suspect you would be quite surprised at mine. One can’t paint people in “the complex” with a wide brush; the attitudes there are as varied as that of the general population.
Also, clarifying one point: We aren’t really “pro military” but we are “pro soldier”. Some will get that and some won’t. Either way, it is totally OK. One other thing: Our imagery isn’t specifically American. We offer our discount program to many other countries as well (allied nations).
Thanks Motty for keeping it decidedly civil, in keeping with proper British demeanor! Cheers
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This is by far and away the best interview I have read from a snowboard company owner. Don Seems to understand a whole lot more than most about hard work.
Sorry but this interview is filled with fluff and butter but not much substance. The owner talks about doing things “their way or not at all” and not entering a new product in the industry unless it’s “different” or “Needed”, yet they borrow proprietary technology directly from Capita? Seems like the owner is a bit hypocritical? Yes, totally. There’s nothing wrong with borrowing technology, everyone does it…. Just don’t pitch yourself as innovative, when all you are doing is ‘borrowing”.
The owner states: “if someone else already does it, and we can’t make it better, we don’t do it until we can. This keeps us from developing me-too products.”
a. Are you stating that your boards (that borrow Capita technology) are actually better than Capita?
b. Or are you saying that you do in fact have “me too” products and you’re whole marketing mantra is bullshit?
c. All of the above
Are you dumb or do you lack the ability to read? There’s no mention of Capita’s tech in there at all.
I don’t remember a mention of Capita either, nor do I think anything Echelon resembles them enough to think they even stared at one for 5 seconds for inspiration.
Go back to your hole of stupidity.
I think this person is gettin confused with Omatic’s BS tech, mixing passion, meth and ignorance into an internet cocktail.. Don’t worry guys!
Dear Ron…
I get Google alerts anytime something comes up with our name on it, so I was prompted by the great and powerful iPhone to come check Angry’s site. I think that you’ve gotten us confused with someone else, as I have never ridden a Capita (Just by chance, not because I have anything against them), nor do I follow them really – although last season’s “Awesome” 80′s graphics were some of the best I’ve ever seen on any board ever.
If you’re referring to Omatic and BS Tech, I think the article explains that pretty clearly, doesn’t it? You’re aware that their designer and co-owner, Jason, works with me daily, right? Just checking, so no one sees your comment and thinks it reflects reality. Also, by any chance are you the Ron from Venture Snowboards in Littleton (going based on this here: http://www.spoke.com/people/ron-hansen-3e1429c09e597c101213ea61) ? I think if you aren’t you should mention it so people don’t accidentally confuse your comments as having come from them, or at the least if it is you, so people are aware of a possible bias in your opinions. BTW, Venture has a neat philosophy that we share – no “Women’s Boards”, we make boards, like them, for snowboarders regardless of gamete-production apparatus.
I’m going to make my own choice (D) for your multiple-choice question, which is “The author of this question typed before they thought things through”. It’s a fairly common problem online, especially as we’ve seen with other small snowboard companies lately, so don’t worry —You’re not alone!
Also, Will – missed your comment. Coming from someone with your ability level it means a lot. Thanks so much for the kind words, and whether I understand more about hard work, or I am just willing to do it, is hard to say
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For those who hadn’t heard much of Mayo, I looked him up on Vimeo. This edit is really fun to watch: http://vimeo.com/44148700 . I’m probably WAAAYYYY late to the party in saying he’s pretty good. I blame my swinging lifestyle where I care for my 2 kids and wife, with twins on the way, for not knowing about WIll sooner
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My apologies, yes, I meant to say Omatic, NOT Capita.
And yes, I read the article and still have the same question. If your quasi company mantra is ““if someone else already does it, and we can’t make it better, we don’t do it until we can. This keeps us from developing me-too products” then by borrowing Omatic’s Technology aren’t you in essence building just another “me too” board? I don’t doubt the quality, or the benefit of borrowing Omatic’s tech, it just seems that its not very original and goes against your statement of “if someone else already does it, and we can’t make it better, we don’t do it until we can”…. Are you saying that you’ve borrowed Omatic’s technology and you’ve made it better? Do you consider your boards better than Omatic? Simple questions, please provide simple answers without the murky military jargon….
Also, on your website and in this article you seem fairly jaded about the industry and about certain companies (without naming names). You also appear to have a company ethos of being more ‘core’ than other companies. Regardless of how good your product is, or isn’t, and whichever technology you choose to utilize, I find it fairly audacious to make claims of doing it better, or different, or more innovative when 1. your company is brand new and not proven 2. you are using someone elses technology and 3. you are selling your boards on amazon.com Just a word of advice…… selling boards on amazon.com isn’t going to help your street cred and it’s certainly not core.
So, are you that Ron or not? Again, it’s easy to cast anonymous aspersions online. You could at least make people care by giving them some reason why they should listen to you.
Yes, we did make BS better, and Jason and I are working on the next iteration now As for Amazon, that’s mostly a traffic driver for the site and an easy and secure way to do CC transactions for certain sorts of customers. In general, it isn’t our preferred distribution (they have huge sellers fees) but believe it or not there are some who ONLY will shop through Amazon. It also has SEO benefits to be on there, which are important. Lots of companies sell boards on amazon, unsure why we should be different there, but id be willing to listen if you have a good reason why beyond “I don’t like it.”
As for mil jargon, it’s only murky if you don’t understand it.
As for using someone’s tech, we use it in one place- the 3d base type is a construction made originally conceived by Omatic. We’ve added to I as well as offered it in new variants. We’ve also developed several of our own products which are new to the snowboard marketplace, some of which are out now, some of which will arrive soon.
And as for being jaded, I’d say “annoyed” is a better term. A snowboard isn’t art. It’s a tool for *performing art*. So I get annoyed at any company that thinks it can coast by on promises of bro-Dom or artsy bullshit. Top sheets don’t mean shit if there’s nothing but generics under the hood. That’s why I respect all companies, regardless of location or size, trying to do things in new ways. I also get pissed at companies that think that censoring content or badgering the media and riders with stupid lawsuits is the way to success.
As for being audacious, sure. I don’t mind being good at what we do. I don’t mind knowing that we have an amazing technical and industry team. We’re ok with being audacious. We definitely don’t paint ourselves as “core”, which is a meaningless term. We’re good engineers that make good products for good riders, and in some cases I think we do it better. Instead of core, I’d prefer to say we are mission-focused.
Answer me this there buddy what is “core”? Everyone likes to throw that one out there when arguing a point in snowboarding. Also for that matter where is Omatic these days and can you name any other company with their tech?
First, yes my name is Ron, but not the person you are hinting that I am.
Second, I’m not arguing, simply asking questions.
Third, I understand your military ‘jargon’ completely.. I just find it hilarious when you use it to attempt to sound more evolved than the rest of us. Regardless of political stance, military references and snowboarding simply don’t mix…especially when you are trying to sound smarter, more evolved than your customers. Kids are smart, they see right through this line of BS.
Fourth, I still don’t think you are living up to your own mantra of doing things better. So, are ALL of your boards in some way better than what’s currently being offered in each specific class of board? In your own words “if someone else already does it, and we can’t make it better, we don’t do it until we can. This keeps us from developing me-too products”… For example’ many of your boards use materials, camber, sidecuts that are already being used by various companies in the industry. Obviously there is nothing wrong with this.. So in essence, (help me understand) are you then stating (since most of your tech is fairly straight forward) that all of your current boards are “better” than any other board on the market in each specific class? I assume they must be since you are “making them”… If they weren’t better then clearly “you wouldn’t” be making them? Yes, I’m getting over-analytical, but the your statements in the original article are not completely accurate. I find it hard to believe that each one of your boards are “better” than what’s already being offered by some very accomplished companies. I feel that your comment “if someone already does it…yada yada….we won’t make it..yada yada” is nothing more than marketing spin and I can’t imagine that you truly believe that OR expect anyone else to believe it. I’m not saying that your products aren’t capable (honestly, i dont know) I’m merely pointing out that you claim to be doing things on another level, “mission focused” and above-and-beyond what’s already on the market…Some pretty bold claims that are not justifiable. If these claims were true, where are your TW “Good Wood” awards or your “Platinum Picks”? Where is the myriad of customer reviews backing up your claims of being “better”? Where is your team that is globetrotting to major competitions and claiming podiums? Clearly a company with boards that are soo evolved, mission focused and better would have some fairly substantial accolades? I realize you are a young company, but with boards that are so high-tech and the fact that you’ve “made them” because you “did it better”, I expect that you’d have a fairly healthy list of accolades? I’m suspecting by now that that comment sounded good on paper for the interview, but isn’t really the truth. By the way, it sounds like you have a pretty impressive background, do you press your own boards?
Just for fun, I went and looked at other companies on amazon; pretty much every major player is represented, either directly fulfilled by Amazon or through various affiliates. I often get the feeling that one is only core if you’re not actually selling or producing, in the same way some think an artist is only an artist if they are starving.
I guess I just don’t care if people think I’m core. I’m past the need for validation in that sense. What I do care about is making fun products that work well, and we’re doing that so I’m pretty happy with the direction and standing of our company and our marketing.
Didn’t hint, I asked directly. I think that for smaller companies, a simple thing like a shared name can cause confusion. I’m glad to hear that you aren’t affiliated w/venture, who seem like an upstanding operation.
As for jargon, Ron, you need to understand that I am around that sort of talk a lot in my other profession, so it comes as naturally as “brah” to others. I also am fairly well educated, which I certainly am not going to dumb down because I respect people enough to talk to them in fully engaged English. So I am not trying to make kids feel less evolved (a term that makes no sense, in that that isn’t how evolution works). Im doing it because I am not twelve, and I’m not going to pretend to BE twelve in order to sell kids stuff based on me being one of them.
As for accolades, we have been getting quite a few; you can read about them in various locations online. T’s good wood and pp are something we are pursuing, but I put little stock in their opinions one they removed the “blank top sheet rule”, which opened an already subjective process to even more subjectivity.
We’ve had people on our team doing extremely well, actually. Evan won 3 events at Grenade games last year, as one example. He won again this year. We have a guy going to the Olympics in Sochi, which is all I can say right now. We approached by two others (a European and American) but I sadly couldn’t afford them
. So I’m pretty happy.
In general, on the board side I think that we make the best 3D base out there, and since it is on all but one of our decks I actually do think it makes them better in that way. If you want to get pedantic about it, to the point of claiming the BASIC SHAPE of a board in some way invalidates my reasoning, then I suppose you’d be right. But that seems taking things to a silly extreme.
If for whatever reason we aren’t the company for you, I understand and hope you find products you enjoy , can identify with, and are quality. There’s a ton of options, which is part of what makes snowboarding great.
And no, I don’t press my own boards, in much the same way that the guy that designs the Boeing 787 doesn’t wrench the plane together. I let people that specialize in that skill do it, so that the product is better. Could I press one? Sure. I get the process. But as a skill it’s something I leave others to master so I can do what I do best.
In a nutshell, and without bias:
1. You don’t press your own boards
2. You borrow technology that others are using / have been using
3. You are using materials and construction methods that most manufacturers are using
4. More than likely your boards are made in China by someone other than you
5. You don’t appear to be using any technology, materials or methods that are proprietary to you
Answer one question…
How exactly is this statement true in any way? “if someone else already does it, and we can’t make it better, we don’t do it until we can. This keeps us from developing me-too products””
What exactly are you bringing new to the table here?
1) Yes. Neither does Jake Burton. Could he? Sure. Does he? No. Your point is? Are you SURE you aren’t a company owner? Seems you have an agenda you aren’t revealing.
2) YEp, in some areas that is true, as (by your admission) it is true of everyone. Like everyone, every company has their own spin they believe makes their products better in some dimension(s). I GUESS YOU GOT ME AND WON ON THE INTERNET!
3) Well, if you mean “all snowboards are essentially the same product with specific variations”, then yes. Edges, for example, pretty much come frm one of a few places. But no one is using BS Tech, so that is one dimension I claim as currently unique and better.
4) Of course! Just like every other major manu save for NS, Mervin, and Signal. There are of course other smaller guys that press locally. Good for them.
5) Well, then you appear to not know us very well, but whatever you think is fine by me.You’ve got your mind made up, so far be it from me to try TOO hard to change it.
As for your one question, It’s true in every way. If you weren’t so focused on trying to win, you’d be able to see it. One thing though, about kids being smart, Ron:
“Kids are smart, they see right through this line of BS.”
They certainly can. And from your first comment you came off less like someone who wanted knowledge and more like someone TRYING to sound smart on the internet. And Like someone TRYING to pretend to want a meaningful back-forth.
But kids are smart enough to know that a comment like this:
“b. Or are you saying that you do in fact have “me too” products and you’re(sic) whole marketing mantra is bullshit?”
And following it later with this:
“Second, I’m not arguing, simply asking questions.”
Isn’t really someone looking for an answer. They start out combatitively because they think they will get to WIN AN ARGUMENT ON THE INTERNET. A reasonable “question” might have read more like “How can you reconcile licensing BS Tech from Jason with innovation?”, which I answer directly in the article you purport to have read but didn’t quite comprehend.
Instead, you went straight to the schoolyard, and it’s because you really don’t care about my answer. Instead, you want to prove to the world how pressing your own boards and not farming the job to a factory worker makes you “core”. And it’s exactly the stance I would expect of someone who presses their own boards in their garage. And, much like the Hobbyist’s Altair vs amodern Macbook in the computer world, that is no longer a sustainable business model at larger scales. I know that hurts, but it is the truth and it does no good to deny it.
One other thing – no one “presses their own boards”. That is done by very expensive machines. And that is 100% OK. Sure, they do fg layup, carbon placements, etc… but you know who does that REALLY well? The factory worker that does it hundreds of times a day, not the guy that gets to do it on 40 boards for his bros. Is that cool? Sure! I used to cut my own skateboards back before there were true blanks for sale and they were neat —but there was no way they could compete with the volume and finish of a factory worker.
I can’t hope to have everyone in the snowboarding realm as my customer. I know that, since Yao Ming makes my snowboards, that you are unlikely to be one. And I am OK with that. I’m looking for customers that are looking for well warrantied, well engineered, good-performing boards that won’t break the bank (another way in which we are objectively “better” is that we operate smartly to keep costs down). If you have a different value scale, that’s cool. Vote with your dollars, euros, yen, or whatever. But don’t get on your horse and claim to know what belongs in snowboarding as a whole and what doesn’t. That isn’t for you to decide. It is for each snowboarder to decide for themselves.
Now, I need to sleep. Goodnight.
Thank you for the well thought out response. I’m not sure what I “won”, but I’m certainly sure that despite your long-winded, tip-toe-through-the-tulips answer I’ve certainly proved my point plain and simple. Your marketing claims of bigger, better, more innovative and not of the “me-too” variety is exactly that…marketing jargon without merit. You, in your own admission, bring one very small thing “new” to the table and your boards are made by a Chinese big-box, “me-too” company. I find it very hard to believe that Yao Ming makes your boards better than the rest of the OEM’s they have on their line… It’s been fun schooling you, and I’ve certainly made it clear that your boards are in fact ‘me too’, with one exception. Most “me too” companies have solid products with interesting graphics. A well learned guy like you could learn a lot from some of these ‘me too’ brands, you’re graphics clearly prove that point.
It was a pleasure chatting with you, however I suggest you get some sleep. Tomorrow is right around the corner and you’ve got a full day ahead designing trend-setting, one-of-a-kind snowboards and spending countless hours fighting on the internet only to have your marketing mantra debunked. Hang in there champ, tomorrow is another day. Better luck!
Also, it seems that you’ve completely missed the CWCS system, which I can’t fault you for since you likely haven’t seen it yet (being its first year and not in stores yet). You DEFINITELY haven’t seen our binding, which is a pretty unique design but not yet ready to sell.
We actually tried this year to do a four-hole binding. We went all the way through testing with it. And we ended up NOT OFFERING IT for sale. You know why? It didn’t add enough to any dimension of “better” to warrant it. We were hoping to make that one better on the dimension of “value”, but pricing didn’t come in low enough. So there’s just one example of a scenario in which that statement I made is true, to the tune of many dollars, because I am not going to bedazzle a generic binding and throw my name on it.
Anyway, NOW off to bed.
LOL Ron… congratulations on your Nth consecutive internet win. While I am unsurprised that any normal, well-thought out response is tiring for you to read and process, I admire your spunk.
BTW, most OEMs merely carry out the engineering directives of their brands. Saying that “you have a hard time believing it” merely points out your ignorance of how the business works. (I suspect that you think that FoxxConn, maker of many consumer ellectronics products, makes the iPad and other tablets with equal quality too). Keep on believing your superiority, Ron, and keep onkeepin’ it core for your bros in your safety meetings! You’re the best, AROUND! Nothin’ ever gonna keep you down!
This post is merely so that I can get the last word. I have nothing more to say, other than I challenge you not to post again! For a “company” owner that projects himself as “highly educated” you sure are incredibly juvenile! What kind of company “owner” spends their ‘valuable” time fighting on the internet? OH wait, we it’s Echelon….. me too
1. Ron you are an idiot.
2. But maybe Echelon owes you a thank you, this discussion has pushed their boards to the top of my short list for the next one.
Actually Ron you come across as a few various small company owners I’ve dealt with that don’t grasp the reality of a global economy, snowboarding as a whole, or tech stories of companies. I could sit here and point out all your problems with your beliefs to the points your argument would be so debunked you would crawl back to whatever AOL chatroom you came from. But saving myself time and effort I will point out one thing, you value Good Wood, Best of Test, and Platinum Picks. For 2 grand you can buy a Platinum Pick I have their media kit, I pointed that out last year that it’s biased. Good Wood it’s all about advertising dollars and if you believe that 1 run through a park by a semi pro rider constitutes them knowing anything about a snowboard you’re a moron. On top of the fact I have an email stating that they couldn’t ride all 500 of the boards sent to them this year. Best of Test, oh lets see go to a WWSRA demo or the like, ask 10 random shop kids what they liked, boom best of test award. Cool lets forget that 90% of those kids have some company buying them off with gear every year and of course they aren’t going to bite the hand that feeds.
Now I need to go take my kick backs from various companies, give out awards, and then go interview super globe trotting snowboard superstars!
Ron, you should be committed. There is so much wrong with what you’re saying and speaking as a current factory worker, OEM and full production of a product are different things. OEM typically refers to an entity receiving a catalog from a factory and picking this sidecut for this size with this core and these guts with this camber profile. This is the type of product that comes out of places like Monson. Overseas factories do offer this, but they also offer their expensive machines (presses, mills, finishers… manpower) to those companies who choose to completely design their own product and choose their own build materials, even down to their choice in resin if the price is right. This is where you get companies like Capita and portions of Arbor both coming out of Elan, with completely different tech and build quality. You also have companies, Burton, who come out of both EU and China. Seems to me by your OEM logic this makes Burton 2 snowboard companies?
As for their industry dominance. Give it time. I’ve talked to Don and Jason, they know what they’re doing, they’re willing to put in the effort, and so far for their price they DO make some of the best boards on the market. To propose the point that “with such a superior product why aren’t they winning tons of awards or on top of every podium with the best riders on their boards”(paraphrased due to laziness) doesn’t show any merit as they have not even had a full production year under their belts. 2010/2011 was a soft launch, this coming season is the first full production season for the brand. Not to mention a talented snowboarder can do a lot on a very shitty board. Have you ever seen Signal Snowboards Every Third Thursday? Watch those and tell me professionals REQUIRE the best to perform.
Trusting GW, Best of Test, PP… that’s just sad. Not to mention using them as an argument on the media site who exposed the purchase price of one and the crucial problems of the others is just careless and pathetic.
You guys are CLEARLY missing the point. Instead of picking apart my argument why doesn’t someone offer a knowledgeable response to this question?
What innovations, construction, materials, etc are these guys bringing to the table that sets them apart from everyone else and lives up to the owners claim of not making “me too” products. It’s a very simple question and I’m sure some of you are smart enough to answer it… Licensing someone elses technology, making it ‘slightly’ better and slapping on some lame military cartoon-esque topsheets in a factory in China doesn’t really seem all that innovative. Prove me wrong, let’s hear how these guys arent just like the other companies (me too) and are doing things different, above,beyond & better?
I’m pretty sure your questions have been answered you’re just trolling and grasping at straws for whatever reason.